The Latest: Butts, Wernick testify at justice committee on SNC-Lavalin affair

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OTTAWA — The latest developments at the House of Commons justice committee, holding hearings Wednesday on the SNC-Lavalin affair (all times local):

11:50 a.m.

Butts and NDP ethics critic Charlie Angus sparred over his meeting on Dec. 18 with Jessica Prince, who was then chief of staff to Jody Wilson-Raybould.

Angus pointed to Butts’s earlier testimony about how that meeting unfolded and how it differed from the account provided by Wilson-Raybould, someone he called a credible witness.

Butts started to talk, Angus interrupted in, and the two went back and forth. Finally, Angus said Wilson-Raybould either lied or she didn’t, adding her reputation is on the line.

The issue is about what happened, Butts said. People have different perspectives on what happened.

Looking at Angus, he told the New Democrat that Angus wasn’t going to get him to call anyone names.

11:44 a.m.

If Wilson-Raybould had made up her mind up on SNC-Lavalin, Butts said she didn’t need to disclose anything about the content of her decision or order to public prosecutors, but could have let the Prime Minister’s Office know a decision had been made.

Wilson-Raybould didn’t, he said, and it seemed she solicited further meetings on the matter and welcomed further advice.

If anyone crossed a line, it was Wilson-Raybould’s responsibility to inform the Prime Minister’s Office of it, Butt said, adding he would be the person she would most likely have approached and Wilson-Raybould never brought it up with him.

The Conservatives put forward a motion asking the government to hand over all texts Butts sent to Finance Minister Bill Morneau’s chief of staff, Ben Chin, Morneau himself, Wilson-Raybould, two senior officials on Trudeau’s staff, current Justice Minister David Lametti, and Trudeau about the SNC-Lavalin file — but the Liberal majority voted it down.

Butts said all of the texts and information he has at his disposal about the Dec. 5 meeting has been read into the record.

11:31 a.m.

On the texts Butts used in his testimony, the former Trudeau aide said he got them through his lawyer. Conservative deputy leader Lisa Raitt pressed him on who picked the texts being used as evidence.

Butts had to give up his government phone when he resigned on Feb. 18.

Butts said he looked at his texts on Feb. 8 — the day after the first Globe and Mail story about the affair — when the newspaper sent him, through the Prime Minister’s Office, a very specific question about a December dinner he had with Wilson-Raybould that included talk of the SNC-Lavalin case.

He said he looked at his phone and the texts to see if he remembered the meeting correctly.

Butts added he didn’t think SNC-Lavalin was “entitled” to a remediation agreement.

On the allegation of political interference, he pointed to the public statement on Feb. 12 where the public prosecution service rejected allegations of political interference in the trial of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman or on any other matter.

Speaking about the senior Prime Minister’s Office staff Wilson-Raybould said pressured her on the case, he said he knows them well, he knows the SNC-Lavalin file a bit, and “it just doesn’t ring like something they would do on this or any other matter.”

Raitt, before going back into more questioning, gave the committee a heads-up that she would move a motion asking for texts to be tabled as evidence.

11:15 a.m.

Butts has denied the PMO co-ordinated a campaign to pressure Wilson-Raybould to order the federal prosecution service to provide SNC-Lavalin a remediation agreement.

Had such an effort existed, Butts said, he would have known about it.

He also said neither he nor Prime Minister Justin Trudeau ever ordered anyone in the Prime Minister’s Office, or anyone else, to press Wilson-Raybould to give SNC-Lavalin a deal.

Butts said he doesn’t have an opinion on what decision the former or current attorney general should take on the matter.

It was a “novel law” being applied for the first time, he said. So he and others thought the bare minimum was to make sure the Trudeau government had a good reason to give the workers affected why the government wouldn’t provide the company a deal.

The bare minimum, he said, was getting the best advice possible: “There’s not much more to this.”

The answers come after Liberal MP Randy Boissonnault asked Butts about how many meetings government ministers had about the Trans Mountain pipeline, trying to provide some context for Wilson-Raybould’s lobbying claims.

Butts said it would have been hundreds over months — and that would be a fraction of the lobbying effort the government faced during the renegotiation of Canada’s free trade agreement with the United States and Mexico.

11:05 a.m.

NDP justice critic Murray Rankin raised Jane Philpott’s resignation from cabinet on Monday, and particularly her public letter outlining her concerns about the SNC-Lavalin affair and saying that she had lost confidence in the government’s handling of the issue.

He asked Butts about the meeting he had with Wilson-Raybould’s then chief of staff, Jessica Prince, on Dec. 18. In the meeting, Wilson-Raybould told the committee that Butts said something to the effect of that there was no solution “that does not involve some interference” after being warned what was being proposed was political interference in a prosecution.

Butts said his recollection was that he didn’t — or wouldn’t — have used the word “solution” because it’s not one he would have used in that context.

He said his point was that if getting a second opinion from someone like a former Supreme Court justice constituted interference, then it seemed it wasn’t possible to even have a conversation about the issue.

Answering a question from Liberal MP Randy Boissonnault, Butts said he is not aware that Wilson-Raybould ever brought up concerns about undue pressure to the prime minister, nor did she raise it with him.

10:55 a.m.

Under questioning by Conservative deputy leader Lisa Raitt, Butts talked about growing up in Cape Breton and the concern people might have had watching a company collapse. He said a brief discussion of ways to help, in a faraway office, wouldn’t have been good enough.

He said the Prime Minister’s Office just wanted to give consideration to all options on SNC-Lavalin because it was the first time that the law on deferred-prosecution agreements was going to be used, addressing what he called a lot of insinuation about his motives based on speculation.

Looking at the situation today, he said he doesn’t envy the position Wilson-Raybould or her successor as justice minister, David Lametti, find themselves in given the stakes for the company and its 9,000 workers in Canada.

He noted that since he resigned, he has gone without speaking to the prime minister, a longtime friend, for the longest time 30 years.

Moving on to questioning from the Liberals on the panel, Butts didn’t say Wilson-Raybould lied, adding it’s possible for people to see situations differently.

All he is doing today, Butts said, is providing his version of events.

10:42 a.m.

Butts said he regrets that Wilson-Raybould’s trust and faith in her colleagues have eroded, but all the officials named in Wilson-Raybould’s testimony have done nothing wrong.

At all times, he said, the PMO just wanted to have someone like former Supreme Court justice Beverly McLachlin provide a second opinion, and he did not see how his brief conversations constituted undue pressure.

The concern officials had, he said, was for the 9,000 jobs that could have been lost at SNC-Lavalin if it faced a criminal conviction — something Butts called a public-policy issue.

He said he only learned of Wilson-Raybould’s perception of events when she testified at the committee last week, and that she made up her mind in September to not provide SNC-Lavalin a deal.

The decision to move Wilson-Raybould out of the justice portfolio was made because she was a strong performer in cabinet and Trudeau needed a strong minister of Indigenous services, Butts said, and had nothing to do with SNC-Lavalin. She ended up as minister of veterans affairs after refusing to move to Indigenous services.

The committee moved into questioning with a warning from the chair to not wander too much away from the focus of the day’s meeting.

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10 a.m.

Gerald Butts, former principal secretary to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, entered the committee room — one larger than used the week prior for former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould — and took his seat, alone.

A number of additional MPs not on the committee attended the meeting today. NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh was also in the room.

Butts avoided a phalanx of cameras outside the committee room by arriving through a back entrance.

Butts’ testimony planned to contradict Wilson-Raybould’s version of events, in some detail, casting a different light on conversations Wilson-Raybould described as part a campaign of pressure tactics and veiled threats to help SNC-Lavalin avoid criminal prosecution.

He planned to back up his version of events with emails, text messages and other documentation, much as Wilson-Raybould did in her testimony.

Before beginning to speak, the Liberal majority on the committee voted down a Conservative motion for Butts to be sworn in to testify under oath.

Conservative MP Michael Cooper tried in vain to have Butts sworn in, but he was told the committee had spoken.

“I will tell the truth,” Butts told the committee as he started his opening statement.

The Canadian Press